Building Trust in Fintech | "What The Fraud?" Podcast—Money 20/20 Special Edition

In this special episode of What The Fraud?, Sumsub’s Sales Director for the Americas, Anastasia Shvechkova, steps in as host to share highlights from the show floor in partnership with the C-Suite Podcast team.

The episode brings together leading voices from Gusto, Bluevine, MoneyGram, and Worldpay for Platforms to discuss how AI is reshaping fraud, why trust is becoming the new competitive currency, and what risk and compliance leaders must do to stay ahead. From deepfakes and synthetic documents to agentic AI, cross-border payments innovation, and the evolving role of risk teams, this conversation explores the technologies and strategies defining the future of financial security.

Samant Nagpal, Gusto

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: We are here with Samant Nagpal, Head of Payments and Risk at Gusto. Samant, thanks for being here. Thank you for taking the time. And let's jump into the first question How about that?

SAMANT NAGPAL: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Amazing. The fraud landscape keeps evolving. What new fraud patterns do you see now? And which new tactics do you find hardest to stop?

SAMANT NAGPAL: Let’s get back to the fundamentals first. When we look at Gusto, we have the lowest loss rates from a historical standpoint, and that’s because we’re doing a great job of making sure we use dynamic, risk-based decisioning to boost trust with our customers. That being said, if you look underneath, there are fundamental changes happening because of GenAI. GenAI is essentially lowering the barrier of entry for bad actors to attack, and that is something we’re seeing.

We’re not seeing account takeover change as a taxonomy, or first-party fraud change as a taxonomy, or fake-account fraud change as a taxonomy. But what we are seeing is that the scale at which these happen is changing, because GenAI is able to scam people a bit more efficiently at this point in time. We’re seeing a proliferation of deepfakes and social engineering happening beneath the surface. But the good part is that we have a variety of signals and measures in place to ensure we continue to stay on top of it.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Do you fight AI with AI? What would you say?

SAMANT NAGPAL: We're moving into a world where, by 2030, it's estimated that there will be 6 billion AI agents. Now, when you have 6 billion AI agents and only about 8 billion people in the world, how are you going to manage the risk that comes with managing those agents? That risk has to be managed with AI, which is why this is a very exciting time. As productivity scales and people’s needs are met, people will use AI agents for doing good. But you will always have situations where AI agents are used in harmful ways, and that's where you have to counteract AI with AI.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: When you mentioned that you're using those signals to protect basically the life cycle of the customer how do you approach building and maintaining risk matrix at scale that also stays adaptive over time?

SAMANT NAGPAL: I love the fact that you use the word lifecycle, because I have a fundamental philosophy: risk management is not just about identity. Risk management in the era of the 2020s is about building great user experiences. For example, the job of risk management is not just to understand who the person is, but to create a good “bad odds” ratio that allows you to understand what actions you need to take. You need to have a risk appetite framework around that.

There are always going to be false positives. When you have false positives, you need a “fail gracefully” mechanism, so that if someone is impacted but is truly conducting a legitimate transaction, you provide a smooth, corrective experience while involving humans in the loop to complete the transaction.

Instead of focusing on this one singular point—identity—you work progressively through a user experience flow. In the 1990s, for example, the focus was on using signals to reduce the surface area of impact on customers. In the 2020s, every false positive tends to have a very high blast radius, as it can quickly go viral on social media. You need to create user experiences that help customers, because it’s how you show up in those critical moments. And finally.

Any signal you use to detect bad behavior is also the same signal that helps you detect good behavior—and you can’t forget that.

That’s why we’re not just fraud fighters; we’re fighters for good. We make sure that the 99% of people trying to do good in the world are the ones we enable to succeed.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: What would you say are like other challenges? Because you mentioned, of course, AI and the AI agents that are going to come for us, basically, that combination between protection and conversion rates. What other challenges are like right now you're seeing every day?

SAMANT NAGPAL: The theme that I'm seeing from having walked around Money20/20 today is KY. Know your agent, just like there's a 'Know Your Agent' program. There's a Know Your Transaction. There's a Know Your Business. There's know your customer. There's a KY around everything. And the reason why that is happening is because as we move into an agentic commerce world or an agentic AI world, you're going to have a two x two matrix, you're going to have good agents and bad agents, and you're going to have good humans, bad humans. So, you're moving from a world where it was bots. Is this action being taken by a bot, or being taken by a human to this two x two matrix? And risk management was already complex when there was this one single cell. Now you've basically turned it into four cells, and that is where trust will become really, really important. And so KY agents, trust, It was going to be kind of the theme with a lot of alphabets after key to see how we manage risk in the near future.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Now that makes sense. Definitely know your something is a is a big thing over at Money20/20 and in general in the world of fintech. And I think that's important. And the last one that I've got for you is just like, what are the new trends and strategies do you think will come in 2026 or in the next few years? And what advice do you have for risk and compliance teams?

SAMANT NAGPAL: The most important thing that brands will lean on in an agentic world is trust. Because in a world where AI agents are able to do a lot of your work, customers will actually be looking for trust. And trust happens when you do the right thing. Do you do the right KYA, KYB, KYT? And what I'd say is, we cannot stop the world from coming because the world is here and it is going to be doing a lot of good. With electricity comes electrocution. And so, it's our job to ensure that as we break ground on this new electricity, we're also prepared to handle the electrocution component of it, so that the world can be a safer place.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Definitely. Thank you very much, Samant. Very wise words. And you know, happy to have you here with us and enjoy. Money20/20.

SAMANT NAGPAL: Thank you and appreciate you guys having me here.

Mira Srinivasan, Bluevine

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Here with me now, Mira Srinivasan, Chief Risk Officer at Bluevine. Mira, thank you very much for joining us today.

MIRA SRINIVASAN: Thank you for having me.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Beautiful. We're going to start with a few questions about fraud because that's the area we're interested in most, right? 

MIRA SRINIVASAN: Yeah. The fun spot.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Exactly. What new types of fraud have you seen emerge recently? And are there any old ones that manage to stick around?

MIRA SRINIVASAN: Fraud is always exciting. So, everything that has happened continues to stay. They don't go away. They just evolve and take a slightly different form. So just to talk about different dimensions of fraud. First-party fraud, third-party fraud, and synthetic. All of them continue to exist. So, you can't drop your guard on any of them. But new types have been emerging. On even existing fraud, like the first party. The scale of it has changed since the COVID years. People have felt more comfortable defrauding financial institutions, being a little bit bolder about it. So, they represent themselves. But the scale of it has changed, which means your defences need to evolve with it. That certainly is an AI-generated document, an AI-driven license. Any AI-aided fraud has certainly increased. And that's interesting because it changes the scale of what you operate at. The scale of account takeovers has changed. Complexity has changed from being very simplistic—"I'll send you a message and you compromise MFA"—to these extremely professional-looking websites, which compromise MFA in real time. So, the fraud vector hasn't changed, but the path of execution on it has changed. We are also seeing an increasing volume of these sleeper accounts where it's sophisticated fraud, multiple entities involved in it. They create a web of good transactions and bad transactions. It's hard to determine if they are fraud. And these are not all new accounts. So, they stay on your books for a while. These are sleeper accounts. And they pull money out at different times. So, makes it even harder to combat fraud. So, things are always changing in the landscape.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Definitely. And you mentioned a few threads. Like deepfakes, synthetic document fraud has surged tremendously. And I wanted to ask you, how do you make sure that you are validating new customers effectively? Of course, catching bad actors, but still providing legitimate users with a smooth experience, because that's the key.

MIRA SRINIVASAN: I know, that's always the gold standard. You want to be seamless, but you also want to be secure. These are two dimensions of the same coin, and you have to balance them out. I think a lot of it starts from making the right investments in the fraud vector. You don't want to compromise on knowing your customers or applicants. The trade-off that you're making is, do you want to ask the customer at a million steps? Or can you seamlessly gather data around them to cover who they are? Do they have an email? Do you know their phone presence? Do you know where they're coming at you from? Invest in data sources to create a profile of the customer so you understand who's coming through. Other avenues that can help. Like that's the basic. And then you start going through step-up validation. So, you're not putting every customer of yours through ten different questions, but you're asking them questions on a need-to-know basis. But you're also stepping them up. I think this is as much an organizational philosophy question as to whether we care about knowing the customer, and we want to make the right trade-offs. So, step-up authentication helps. Feedback loop from what you know and what you derive from these applications. And constant monitoring absolutely helps. So, I think it's always evolving. And I would say we can do all of these, and they are strategies. But in my mind, there's like this philosophical alignment needed, which is, risk teams should think of their roles as not just saving dollars, not just fraud losses, but they need to think of their roles as also guardians of customer experience, also as guardians of growth. Because that puts the course, the duality of how you set up a customer onboarding journey and how you solve for fraud.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: No, that definitely makes sense. And I wanted to ask, how does AI play into this? Because, of course, we said that AI helps fraudsters, but how does it help, right now, you as a risk manager?

MIRA SRINIVASAN: AI has multiple use cases. I mean, some part of AI is not as new in the sense that machine learning models can. It's debateable what you want to call AI, machine learning models and ability to understand how does the customer really interact with you, who this customer is and having like neural networks and paths to classification, all of those are incredibly powerful in helping us get to the right answer on identifying fraudsters. And then there is the agentic AI element of it, which is, I think, the newer evolution of AI, where I think as much as AI agents can attack your systems and put through thousands of applications, as a company, you need to have AI agents on manual validation as well. One is data elements on identifying fake documents, fake licenses. But you also need to train as many AI agents in your workflow in risk operations, where driver's licenses, documents that come through to you. KYB validations, all of those can be performed validly. And companies don't run into a situation where AI-based applications flood our systems, and we are not able to get to decision-making them, because that is another way fraudsters operate now. They send in so many applications that your systems overwhelmed. So, AI has been meaningful from that perspective. It helps us understand, and it can help us scale.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: What has been the biggest challenge when it comes to fraud? So, because we talked about different patterns, different ways, different channels, what do you think is the biggest challenge right now, specifically for your company? Let's say you are trying to overcome and be creative about it.

MIRA SRINIVASAN: It's less of a specific vector of fraud. It is more the philosophy of how fraud works, or how investments correlate to the bottom line. When you think of credit or other issues, they all involve a continuous scale where you make an investment. The system gets better; the bottom line gets better. Fraud isn't that way where you may make an investment in controlling for a specific vector of fraud, but it's a leaky boat, so you have to build a moat around yourself. You have to invest in a minimum number of controls and be able to sustain that investment to reap the benefits of reduced fraud.

So, I think the biggest challenge is the constantly evolving nature of fraud. You're firefighting between account takeovers, then and again, account takeovers is an interesting topic unto itself. The customer compromised it. But there is an element of reputation risk, and what you want to do that's right for the customer. You're trying to firefight an account takeover, and then suddenly there is an AI bot attack. And then there is another element of the sleeper accounts that start pulling money. I think the biggest challenge is these diverse groups of fraud challenges that we have to overcome at any given point in time. And the constant need to automate that feedback loop, I would call it an opportunity. And it's also a challenge at the same time, where you have feedback loops so quickly, which means the pace of iteration for our models has to be really, really fast to pick up what's going on and continue to maintain our edge.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: And with this diversity of different types and this in a constant innovation and the speed of it, what's one advice you would give to compliance and risk teams at fintechs all around the world?

MIRA SRINIVASAN: I'd say the feedback loop. Like, as teams, we need to talk to each other. We should not shy away from reviewing cases. We should not shy away from reviewing cases from an AML perspective, I think there has to be a risk averse mindset. I think my piece of advice would be to count on the rest of the organization. I think there has to be a risk-ation outside of risk management.

As I've heard some folks say, risk management plays a role with a capital R, capital M, but then there are your salespeople, account managers, and many others who play risk management with a small r, small m, which is equally powerful.

So, build that loop in and within your automation and manual. Have the feedback loop. When people review cases, don't just let it at a manual. Review feedback loop into your models and your rules. That's the only way to scale fraud systems. Because otherwise, I think that's also a fintech problem with volume, where our volumes are not that large, that models may always pick it up, or they take time to pick it up. But that forced feedback loop makes us get ahead of the challenge very quickly. That that would probably be my biggest advice, and that's helped us make strides in fraud over these years.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Yes, the connection between different teams and collaboration is important. We also discussed this with other guests. So, we're all on the same page. And I think audience will also kind of benefit from it. Well, Mira, thank you very much for joining us today for your time. I hope that you enjoy Money20/20, and maybe we'll talk soon.

MIRA SRINIVASAN: Thank you so much for having me.

Luke Tuttle, MoneyGram

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: And now I'm joined by Luke Tuttle, Chief Product and Technology officer at MoneyGram. Luke, thank you very much for joining us today. Great to have you here.

LUKE TUTTLE: Thank you for having me. It's great to be back here at Money20/20. This is about my fifth in the last ten years.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: That is great. How is it actually this year?

LUKE TUTTLE: It's great. There's a lot of new payments technologies of course, with crypto payments. I started at Klarna ten years ago and it was all about alternative payment methods. And now it's much more about crypto and stablecoins. It's interesting to see the evolution and payments since then.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: And you had your session, which was called ‘Reshaping Global Money, Movement Through the Blockchain’. How did it go, and what were the key takeaways you wanted the audience to walk away with?

LUKE TUTTLE: Yeah, it was very nice. It was with Zach from Bridge, their CEO, and our talk was a lot about actually using stablecoin and what it takes to get started. And the real message there is to not get caught up in a pilot purgatory, meaning you need to do some tests to get your organization learning about stablecoins. But stablecoins work, so it's a matter of educating the teams, risk compliance, of course, getting that muscle, and then just getting going. Because if people don't get going with their partners, then we won't get this ecosystem out there, people working together. So, it's important to get started, but also just get out of that pilot, like get going with it.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Makes a lot of sense. And I know that you have also launched services like MoneyGram Ramps this year. Perhaps you could just explain exactly what that is and how you provide global interoperability while upholding compliance standards as well.

LUKE TUTTLE: That's a great question. So, Ramps is our API, our technology that allows our customers to convert from crypto to cash for the largest global network of crypto to cash in and out in the world. So, with our partners, they're able to use this API within a crypto native wallet, and then enable their customers, the customers of that wallet, to get cash out at one of our 470,000 locations on the globe. And it solves a real problem about the real-world utility of crypto. It's great to have it in your wallet, but what am I going to do with it? And payments are still emerging in these wallets. So, our cash-out option is just one way to support a preference that customers have for receiving cash.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: That makes a lot of sense. And we work with a lot of Ramps as well, all over the world. So, it's great to hear that MoneyGram has also launched this service. Can we talk a little bit about cross-border payments? They heavily rely on trust, of course. And how do you make sure that new innovations actually make the experience clearer, safer, and more transparent for the customers?

LUKE TUTTLE: In my role at MoneyGram, I'm both the CTO and the CPO. Regardless of your role at any company, you should always think of the customer first. What's the real customer problem? So, I'm fortunate to get to wear both hats. So that reinforces to an organization that it's all about a real-world problem that a customer has about how to get money to a loved one? How do I pick this up safely? And then the trust point that you added on there.

MoneyGram is around 85 years. With our partners, we establish a great deal of trust. But the piece that you noted is really the transparency of the send, the communication. So even just now in Colombia, we've launched a new product that is a non-custodial wallet that enhances what we call the receiver experience. So, when you're sending money from, say, the US to Colombia, and someone's receiving that, before we didn't have so much communication to the receiver about what they could do. And the sender really was the one saying, "Hey, receiver, this is how you have to pick the money up." So, with this new experience where the customer is able to actually take that remittance and store it in stablecoin, that customer can now, on their own, choose when and where they want to pick the money up. So, they're now more involved. The receiver is now more involved in that money flow. They're more involved in whether they would like to hold it. Because safety and picking up money are real issues. We even learned that in Colombia, you can get insurance for a couple of hours after you pick up money in case you get robbed. So, imagine now you could actually put that into a stablecoin wallet and choose where and when you'd like to pick the money up, or the amount that you'd like to pick up. So, it's really enhancing that receiver's preference and options in that remittance flow.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: That's a very interesting example actually. May I ask and if you can share, why Colombia?

LUKE TUTTLE: There were a number of different points there. So, you always need to think about compliance and regulatory environment that was sound for a non-custodial wallet. We'd also chosen to hire additional engineers in Columbia. So, we have staff there, designers, and engineers in the market with a local presence. Payments is local.

If you're not in the place where people are doing payments, you're not going to get it right. So that was another piece.

And then it was also a place where we have a large amount of flow into that country. And that's our main acquisition channel for this product. So, it wasn't too big, it wasn't too small. It was kind of just right. So, all those pieces together just fit well to say this is a nice place to start, and also just being in LATAM, because if we can get it right in Colombia, there are five other markets we've already started to launch pieces of the product into. We can take advantage of that geographic area for that purpose.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: No, that makes a lot of sense. And I wanted to ask about AI a little bit. So, fraud prevention is, of course, a huge part of maintaining that trust with customers. Do you utilize AI right now or and how do you see this going to evolve?

LUKE TUTTLE: Yeah, we've made a big commitment to AI throughout the organization. Everything from our developers, who now each have a choice of tools that they can use. We've got a new risk platform that we're implementing that's, I call it AI native. That is, it's hard to articulate just how much different it is. It's a true step function, and what you can do with rules, the capabilities, and the speed at which you can find a tool to understand what the rules are doing. That new platform is already in production. We just started this 3 or 4 months ago. So, with these new AI tools, they also implement faster. And you can do them with your own team. So, it's pretty dramatic what's going on there? It's a little too early to say what the net results will be just because we launched it, but we've made a significant focus on AI throughout the stack.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Yes, that's a buzzword here at Money20/20 anyway. And finally, looking to the future, what do you think will define the next big leap in global payments? And maybe what advice do you have for fintechs all around the world?

LUKE TUTTLE: I think it comes down to ubiquity, and this is where I think MoneyGram has a very strong opportunity, and our brand is well known globally. The name just works MoneyGram. Right. It's not pigeonholing us into a specific type of financial service. So, we can think about how to expand our network. But take advantage of both the online and offline.

Cash is still heavily used throughout the globe. So, any strategy that's all retail, which would be the cash network or all digital. Our view is not going to be the winning strategy. So, for us, it's combining the best of our offline with our online, merging those; it's a buzzword, omnichannel, retailers have been talking about forever. But it's truly what is needed to win. And I feel that with MoneyGram ourselves, we have the right pieces.

But I also see our competitors. I see other payment companies that are making more global offerings. That might have once been a US domestic product. They're launching that in other markets, so it's more seamless. But underlying all of this is just a lot of complexity. As you mentioned earlier, with compliance and fraud, the rules differ by country. So, you see a lot of headlines that say someone can now just move money from A to B. I mean, you can, but you can't get the money out. Like you need to really think about, okay, what are the local regulations, what are the compliance pieces? So that's where I think we're well-positioned because we've been doing it for so long. But the rest of the markets are looking to do the same thing.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: That's great. Well good luck Luke in 2026 with MoneyGram and your new endeavours. And thank you very much for joining us.

LUKE TUTTLE: Great. Thank you. It was my pleasure. 

Billi Jo Wright, Worldpay

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: I'm here with Billi Jo Wright, Chief Risk and Compliance Officer at Worldpay for platforms. Billi, welcome. How is Money20/20 so far for you?

BILLI JO WRIGHT: It's been great. It's always amazing to me how much energy that comes with the show. You come here energized and leave pretty tired because you've spent a lot of time talking to a lot of people.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Yeah, and it's Vegas. It's always crazy.

BILLI JO WRIGHT: Yes, yes.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: I'd like to maybe start with a bigger picture. How has the role of risk and compliance leaders changed in the recent years? Because you told me that you've been in the role for quite some time. 

BILLI JO WRIGHT: Yeah. I've been in the risk operations space for over 20 years now. And you can definitely see how the expectations are changing as a risk and compliance leader. I think people are really looking for risk leaders to be more of a thought partner, embedded in the company's strategy. And so, it's not just about protecting your company anymore. It's like, how do you help them drive growth as well? And how do you do it responsibly? So that's one element of it.

Also, if you think about all the disruption we have in our space, crypto, stablecoin, cross-border payments, P2P. There are so many different types of emerging trends that you really have to stay on top of what those risks may be and constantly kind of scan for how we should be thinking about this as an organisation and how we get ahead of it. And then of course, you have AI. Everybody's talking about that here today. But it's how do you use that for your organization for good. How can you drive automation from that? But are also like what are some of the new risks that we're seeing in the industry because of AI? And how that's going to present fraudulent activity in our market as a result of AI.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: Yes, everybody's talking about AI today and in general at Money20/20. So, there are different AI systems that are used. How do you combine innovation and avoid adding friction to the whole user journey, and make sure that everybody stays protected?

BILLI JO WRIGHT: I mean, I think that's one of the benefits of AI, right? Is that it really does empower you to use data and AI to create an experience that not only allows you to more specifically identify risk, but it also drives automation. It makes you smarter. It allows you to pinpoint where you actually think some fraudulent activity may be or some suspicious activity, and it does that for you.

But you do have to be responsible about it. I think my recommendation to people would be make sure you really understand what your use cases are for AI.

I always say: educate, innovate, and then regulate.

Therefore, ensure that you thoroughly understand what you're doing. Go ahead and start the innovation. But start small, learn from it. And then expand from there. And then continue to collaborate with the rest of your organization on how you can do it responsibly. Put the structure in, the controls in, to make sure that you're implementing it in a very responsible way.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: That definitely makes a lot of sense. I wanted to touch upon a little bit of a compliance angle as well. With regulations tightening all around the world, many firms are thinking about future-proofing compliance. What does that mean in practice? And how do you at Worldpay for Platforms, build frameworks that adapt, rather than just react.

BILLI JO WRIGHT: I think the best like practical application of that is partnering with third parties that really are the subject matter expertise in a lot of different areas. And being able to utilise our partnerships, collaborate with them. What I've found in my experience, I feel like I probably spend 15-20% of my time constantly looking in the market about what new technology is out there. What can I learn from them? How do we work together? I'm on this journey of getting as much data as possible to really help drive informed decisions. I think that's where there are so many partners out there that we can collaborate with to grab that. But it allows you to adapt. Having that flexibility of partnerships where this is what they're focusing on. And they're the subject matter expertise that really gives you that opportunity to do what we're doing, which is building a risk program, enabling the business, and then leveraging partners so that we're not constantly in a reactionary type of mode.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: What is your playbook for assessing those third party vendors, partners, to make sure that they help you build trust as well as maintain the smooth experience in general. And what are the factors you're looking at?

BILLI JO WRIGHT: Beyond the basics of are they a company that has stability? Can they scale with you? Are they the right size customer for you? Some may be too big. Can they move? Are they going to innovate? Are they going to collaborate with us? Some may be too small. Because they're just in their journey. And they really haven't had a chance to prove themselves from a scalability standpoint. But I think at the end of the day, you have to look at it and say, what are you trying to solve for? What's the problem you're trying to solve? And then, does this third party help you with that? From my perspective, like I just said, we're on this data journey. So that's probably one of the number one elements that we look at. But we also look for partners that are willing to work with us, hear what types of use cases we're trying to solve and help us solve it, as opposed to it just being a sale?

And then we do data studies. Is this partner going to be able to give what we expected it to do? Like, are we getting the end result that we thought we would? And if it is, it's great. So that's pretty much our playbook. And it's worked really well.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: That is great. What is maybe your one advice for compliance teams trying to stay ahead of the new trends over the next few years?

BILLI JO WRIGHT: Stay active. Stay very active in the industry. Talk to your peers about things that they're concerned with. How are they approaching some of the emerging trends? We love as risk professionals, we love to talk about fraud. We love to talk about risk. So, leverage that. Tap into that network with individuals that can help you kind of think about where the industry is going. What should I be thinking about?

And then I would say something that's been very helpful for me in my career is that I flipped the script. I have been in risk for a very long time. But I also spent time on the sales side of the business. And it wasn't until then where I really it clicked for me that it takes a lot of money for a company to acquire a customer. And so, what we really tried to live every day from a risk standpoint is we’re the sales enablement department, how do we help our company drive business, and how do we do it? Obviously, in compliance, how do we protect our company? But it's how do we say yes? On the contrary, we can't do that. It's too risky. But it's like, "Oh, well, we could do it like this." And so really just collaborate. For me, that's when risk became fun. It was more about, how do we align to the business strategy? How do we help them become successful as opposed to worrying about whether our loss we hit our loss budget for for the year, obviously important. But when you can help drive revenue too, that's fun. That's a lot more fun.

ANASTASIA SHVECHKOVA: You definitely have to stay collaborative and creative. I think when it comes to fraud and risk, you gotta listen to a lot of people around you. So yeah, we definitely agree. Well, thank you very much, Billi, for taking the time. It's great having you here and enjoy Money20/20.

BILLI JO WRIGHT: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.